M151A2 Year and Make?

[ODRotorHead]

Hello Everyone.

First post. A newguy with a newguy request for help.

I bought an M151A2 in December. The guy I bought it from claimed it’s a 1970 version, but he didn’t have any proof of that. The original data plate is long gone, and there are no tags, plates, or stampings anywhere on the body.

I know it’s impossible to ever know the original serial number, but I’m hoping the collective knowledge of the folks on this site will help me determine which manufacturer built this MUTT (Ford vs. AM General), and possibly the year it was assembled.

The primary reason I’m trying to sort this out, why I’m asking for your help, is because the title that was signed over to me lists the year of manufacture as 1970, and the make as “Jeep.” I’m unsure about the date, but I’m certain the make is definitely not “Jeep.” Before I go to the Secretary of State to request a new title, I’d like to be able to provide the most accurate information possible.

I’ve gone through all the information on M151Jeep.com several times (It is all about the numbers . . . ). Since this is an early A2, the body and configuration may provide some clues:

- The front fenders have the inverted “V” profile and the composite light cups do not have seams.

M151A2 Left Front Fender 001 Low.jpg

- The side panels do not have drains (the panels have been repaired at least once).

M151A2 Left Side Panel 001A Low.jpg

- The fuel system is the Pre-Emission Control version.

M151A2 Pre-Em Fuel System 001 Low.jpg

I went over the vehicle and recorded all the serial numbers, stampings, and casting numbers I could find. It’s possible that none of these components may be original to this MUTT. That said, if there’s any consistency in the component dating that aligns with the A2 body features, it may provide a measure of confidence regarding the date and make. In that case, I can go to the Secretary of State and provide the best available information for the new title.

- Engine Data Plate. Some of the numbers are difficult to read.

M151A2 Engine Data Plate with Text 001 Low.jpg

M151A2 Engine Data Plate with Text 002 Low.jpg

The rest of this post exceeds the size limit for a single post.

[ODRotorHead]

Continued from original post . . .

- Front Differential Casting Numbers

M151A2 Front Differential 001A Low.jpg

- Transmission Casting Numbers and Data Plates

M151A2 Transmission Casting 001A Low.jpg

Transmission Data Plate 002A Low.jpg

- Rear Differential Casting Numbers and Stampings

M151A2 Rear Differential 002A Low.jpg

M151A2 Rear Differential 003A Low.jpg

I checked the spare tire mounting bracket for a number, but no luck. If you can suggest other possible locations for plates and/or stamps please let me know.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Mark

[rickf]

Well now, That has to be one of the most comprehensive first posts I have seen in a long time! Welcome aboard. I would like to see a pic under the hood of the cowl where the Budd tag would normally have been above the valve cover. I would like to see if there is any evidence of the tag left, like weld marks. I do see that there are no side drains, does it have the scupper drains inside and is there any evidence from the inside that the side drains may have been covered or patched over? 70 A2 usually had the straight across fender but I do not know when they went away from that. Whether it was late 70 or early 71. Ken is our expert on these matters but he is convalescing from an illness right now so it will be a bit before he can give any info. On another note, You want to be very, very careful trying to change titles on a 151! These were never supposed to be in public hands so that can be a real nightmare. A M151 does not have a real serial number from the factory and that can be a problem. Most of the time people just keep the title as it is and be happy that they actually have a title.

[m3a1]

Welcome aboard. I have good news and bad news for you. First the good news -

You have excellent communication skills on the keyboard and I'd imagine those skills carry forward into the real world. That's going to be helpful in getting this sorted out with the right people.

Now, the bad news -

....and I'm not trying to be unkind. Facts are facts...

You bought a vehicle without a data/vin plate? That spells trouble. Maybe a lot. Maybe a little. Maybe for you. Maybe for the chap who sold it to you. At the very least, I'm hoping you know the guy you bought it from and I'm also hoping there is some documentation of the vehicle's restoration to be had. That would be helpful.

I'm a retired cop and I was a mover and a shaker in the field of auto larceny which means, deep down, I'm from Missouri. You know...

-The SHOW ME State-

I will tell you what bugs me the most about what you've shown us so far. (And none of my comments are meant to be a reflection on you, personally.)

The elephant in the room, who is standing next to the 800 pound gorilla is - the condition of the vehicle is not commensurate with a description of a date plate that is simply "long gone." Seems like everything else on this vehicle has been handled with great detail and all the rest of it has survived the ages very well, so - why-oh-why is there no data/vin plate?

Is it there, yet unreadable? Or is it g-o-n-e gone? If it is gone, where did it go? Is there ANYTHING left of it and do you have what remains?

That's the heart of the trouble with your MUTT. Its sole identifier has gone missing. Personally, I find that very strange, considering its otherwise exceptional condition. But, to be entirely fair, the back story on a data plate that is long gone hasn't been established in our discussion. That, and you are almost certainly going to be called upon to present the entire backstory of your vehicle to the right people.

Remember, I'm not trying to beat you up. Simply put - these are common questions that will be posed by anyone who has a legitimate, lawful interest in your vehicle...such as the people who will be handling your title, or (more importantly) the LE inspector who will be tasked with trying to identify your little truck.

This site is a good place to find out how such people think.

Your problem is simply this -
The numbers and descriptors on the title must match that of the vehicle and, if that vehicle number comes into question, it must be a verifiable match to pass muster. Failing that...you're going to have trouble. But I think you know that.

Now, this is the part where RickF will say that Mutts are notorious for having their data plates switched, which is unfortunately true and, likely as not, it was done by the original owners (namely, the military) or folks trying to wriggle their way around the other folks who, for a time, made it their business to keep Mutts out of civilian hands....and then I will go on to remind you that, THAT doesn't help you solve your problem AT ALL. In fact...

It only makes it worse.

Now, you might just try to get by with the title you have and who knows, you might manage that but that won't help you on the day you want to sell it.

The trouble with your title is that it rings alarm bells all over the place, particularly when presented as a title for a FORD M151A2. So, my first, and perhaps only useful suggestion for you is to try to figure out if the serial number on your title is actually representative - of a number - of an actual jeep. If the answer is Yes, then that doesn't help you solve titling the Mutt in the least. If the number is similar to that of a M151A2, then the trouble is with the claim that it's a Jeep so, that's a NO....and that doesn't help you either. Either way, close won't cut it.

All of this (as you have presented it) will most likely leave you with having a face-to-face with an inspector and then jumping through all the hoops. It's not the chore you might imagine it to be but it IS going to be a chore and you will end up with a reassigned VIN number. (Which is not the end of the world.)

Best of luck to you.

Cheers,
TJ

[rickf]

As always TJ is such a welcoming person. A lot of what happens with titling a 151 depends on what state you live in also. Some states are very lenient and some, like mine, forget it. If you do not have a previous title you can forget ever getting one. Mine is titled as a 1967 Ford M151 when in fact it is actually a 1964 Ford. But the fact that I have a title, and the data plate to go with it, I am not arguing the fact that the dates are not right. When I go to the shows I have a 64 data plate I can display if I want to but I leave the 67 plate on there just in the far off chance I get stopped and they want to "Check the numbers".

And it looks like the number on the hood, which is normally the data plate serial number, is a 6 digit numerical number. This would not be the right format for a 70 Ford A2. BUT, Does that number match what is on your title? If it does than someone has had a number assigned to it more than likely and it would be a very good idea to leave well enough alone if that is the case.

[ODRotorHead]

Thanks for that information and for your insights. I'll keep all of that in mind going forward.

With regard to the condition of the vehicle, the guy I bought the MUTT from is retired military and he did all the repair work himself. He showed me some old photos, and it was a rusted out hulk when he bought it.

NVSM3700.JPG

He stripped it down to the bare body, cut out all of the rusted structure and welded in new steel. He stripped, sanded, bead blasted, and cleaned every component individually. He then primed and painted everything and put it all back together again. A labor of love for him and a challenge I'd never dare to take on. As an MVPA member, I'm grateful to the guy for bringing this little truck back from the grave.

Thanks again.
Mark

[m3a1]

I'm glad you have those and if he's still around, that will take take you a long way towards getting a reassigned number because then, an inspector has something to hang his hat on. Not that it will necessarily get you to where you want to be (with an original number) but it will take you a long ways toward where you need to be, which is having a legitimate, traceable identity for your little truck.

Inspectors want to establish one thing - that they're not being presented with a vehicle that has had its identity changed
(which prevents the consequences of theft, of course). So, those photos will go a long way toward establishing that. Once that is established, helping you get your vehicle an identity and a proper title means there is one less vehicle out there left to be dealt with.

Cheers,
TJ

[Horst]

Can’t add any value to the original question but have a question myself.
What do you or did you fly?

[csmith]

Welcome! For what it is worth I brought one back from Vietnam about 10 years ago and titled it in Virginia. An ID number had been stamped into the firewall that was required in Vietnam so we used that as a serial number, called it a 1974 Jeep and that's how it was titled. Even had a State Police Officer come to my home to verify the number stamped on the vehicle matched what they put on the title. Once he saw the match he handed me the title and said enjoy!

I would not worry what they called it, if you have a clean title run with it.

Clell

[ODRotorHead]

Thanks Clell. That's probably the best advice.
We're fortunate to have some nice people working in our Town Hall. I'll run it past them sometime next week and see what they recommend. When I first asked the question, my main concern was that my family might want to (have to) sell the MUTT after I'm gone. I'm a little worried that they might run into a problem trying to sell a vehicle that's titled as a "Jeep," but isn't a Jeep.
If I knew for certain that it was assembled by AM General I could kinda, sorta, maybe claim (plead?) that it was/is somewhat, somehow, possibly related to the "Jeep" corporate family. I'll let you know if I get anywhere with that. : )
Have you already posted the details of your MUTT repatriation story somewhere? I'd like to know more about that!
Thanks again!
Mark

[rickf]

Ummmm, AM General is not associated with Jeep. Jeep is now a Fiat/Chrysler deal and before that Chrysler and before that AMC and before that Kaiser/Jeep. And every iteration got more and more complicated and less and less reliable.

[ODRotorHead]

As my long deceased aunt may have once said, "I don't know nothing about nothing, but . . . "

While researching this issue, I read this just a couple of days ago:

AM General - Our History
Company Heritage

https://www.amgeneral.com/who-we-are/our-history/

Who knew?!?

and then there's this . . .

AM Gen History 003.jpg

I'm just sayin' . . . . . : )

I honestly don't know what the facts are regarding the company history. I'm just trying to find a workaround for my Jeep but not a Jeep dilemma (apparently a dilemma of my own making).

I've been interested in the history for a while because my 1967 M35A2 is a Kaiser and my 1981 M35A2 is an AM General. I'm pretty sure the Kaiser originally had a gasoline engine and was later converted to a multi-fuel, but I haven't tracked that down yet. I'm still trying to figure out how the M151 series fits into all of this.

David Doyle's book, M151 MUTT In Action, has some interesting information on page 11. With regard to the various early M151 contracts it says, "Of note, despite Willys/Kaiser-Jeep building these vehicles, Ford remained the lead design agency."

I'm hoping someone can recommend additional histories that might shed a little more light on this topic.

Thanks Rick!

Mark

[rickf]

Once Ken is back up and running he will be able to give you a history lesson in the M-151 and probably also in AM General. Ken is a statistician and has probably the largest database of papers on the 151 in the world. He has sent me a fair bit of it for the wiki but unfortunately I have not been able to get time to get the wiki back up and running. One of our members was working on it but life got in the way. I am a mechanic, I am NOT a computer data input person so I just tend to screw things up when it comes to that.