Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

This is the place to get help with technical matters concerning your M151 jeep

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rickf
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by rickf » June 24th, 2021, 4:27 pm

Just put a 1/8" pipe plug in that vapor return fitting and that will solve the gas return issue. It is not needed and will not cause any issues.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

mutt and jeff
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by mutt and jeff » June 24th, 2021, 7:23 pm

Will probably do that as the jeep will be out for a few days getting a vinegar soaking in the gas tank. I could not figure out how to remove the tank with the ROPS bracket pinched on top of the lip of the tank behind the drivers seat. Can't remove just that bracket as the whole side of the ROPS needs to come out from what I feel.
So I'll let the tank soak filled to the brim with cleaning vinegar for a week or so and then siphen it out and blow out the tank and see what it looks like. Pick up filter was toast and sending unit was rusted in the down position, but an hour or so in the vinegar and it freed up and swings up and down smoothly, who knows what it will read, but that's far down the road.
So I may plug the return fitting and run off secondary fuel tank (milk jug) and continue on with engine and clutch evaluation.

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by rickf » June 24th, 2021, 7:47 pm

Yes, you can plug that line and it will act like any other carburetor from the last 70 years. And no, it will not blow up from the pressure! The pressure will still never rise about the limit set by the pump. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by mutt and jeff » June 25th, 2021, 7:52 pm

Well, while the tank is soaking, I went back to the original issue. With jeep in third gear, front wheels chocked, I hit the starter button and it lurches forward, hits the chocks then the engine keeps turning, but the jeep does not move forward as it cannot. But my son looked under the jeep while this was happening, we have the front driveshaft and inspection cover still off, the flywheel is turning, the pressure plate and clutch disk are turning but the output shaft is not. I have the clutch pedal jammed down with a board between it and the gas tank while we are doing all this.

If something is totally broken in the transmission, I don't know how we lurch forward. But once we meet resistance, the engine and clutch continue to rotate, but not the output shaft.

Is something slipping with all the penetrating oil I have used? Is something broken and I just need to abandon this effort and pull the power pack?
Last edited by mutt and jeff on June 25th, 2021, 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by rickf » June 25th, 2021, 8:57 pm

Pilot bearing could be binding hard. It will not hold the power of the engine but it will let you know it is bound up. Eventually it will tear up the input shaft of the transmission if you keep trying this and that is the problem. My personal opinion is pull the transmission before more damage is done. No matter what happens with this clutch you are going to have to pull the transmission anyway. The flywheel, clutch plate, disc, throwout bearing and most likely the pilot bearing are all bad. I have offered all I can and you keep trying so I am going to back off and be quiet from this point forward.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

mutt and jeff
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by mutt and jeff » June 25th, 2021, 9:49 pm

Message received. Was hoping stuck clutch would be resolved and further MUTT evaluation would be allowed. I have my marching orders that a new clutch will be needed and that is the game plan. Fingers crossed that once new clutch is installed, engine, transmission, differentials and all other running gear will be OK. Entire vehicle restoration is not going to happen so was just trying to reduce the number of landmines.

So this issue will remain unresolved, just replace with new parts.

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by rickf » June 26th, 2021, 9:36 am

You are misreading what I said. I never advocate throwing new parts at a problem as a solution. The problem has to be found before new parts are put in the mix. In this case you are not going to find the problem with what you are doing, you are just going to make the problem worse. You now know the engine runs good. You know the transmission goes in gear, kind of. You are not going to be able to drive it to the degree needed to diagnose the differentials out on the street with it in this condition no matter what you do. So the powerpak has to come out and the transmission has to come off and THEN you can do a further diagnosis on the clutch and transmission and then and only then can you decide what parts may be needed. No sense in ordering a full clutch kit when you may find out the transmission input shaft is rusted so bad the clutch will not work on it. Will you need a flywheel? These are things you will not know until you get it apart. And as far as the differentials a lot can be learned just from draining the oil into a clean container and looking at the oil. Water? particles? Mud? Nothing comes out at all?
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by m3a1 » June 26th, 2021, 12:56 pm

Rick, I think there is more going on than meets the eye. Sounds like the work is being performed for another person so there is the matter of another party calling the shots and many of us have been there; balancing the needs of the customer's vehicle against his wallet and if that wallet is large enough, sometimes the owner wants it made new, despite the potential serviceability of the used parts. Usually, it's the other way around.

Happily, for many of us, pulling the power pack isn't a great big deal (ridiculously easy, in fact) which is why I advocated doing it so early on because this kind of trouble is the sort of thing that might be resolved briefly, only to return at some later time and then, folks end up with egg on their face for having failed to give the customer the bad news straight up. You know how that is. You can't win...unless you are able to convince the owner to completely trust your judgement. That is part of what he's paying for.

I think the steps toward repair or renewal might be different if it was his (or their) vehicle.

A long time ago I had a regular customer bring in a much-loved 1968 Olds Cutlass to my brother-in-law's shop for brakes. No surprise that it was ready for a complete brake overhaul but at the time, the shop was offering the service without a new master cylinder :shock: which was ridiculous because the result was often (but not always) that and old master cylinder would be overwhelmed by the new kit and then begin bypassing soon after the rest of the system was made new.

The reason for this idiocy was that it was my brother-in-law's attempt to be competitive with his half-baked attempts at menu pricing and to compete with other shops in the area. I pointed out to him that if our customer leaves with what she believes to be new brake system (absent a new master cylinder) she'll soon return and the reputation of the shop is then at risk. So, we were left trying hard to convince the customer to open her wallet a bit wider for a new master cylinder, which is kind of like buying a battery powered tool and then finding out you also need to buy a battery. Ridiculous, right?

Well, our long-time customer opted out of buying the new master cylinder, not because she was cheap but because she had only been prepared to spend what my brother-in-law had stupidly suggested was a FULL brake overhaul but his reference was only to the foundation brakes. Sometimes things get down to a matter of the use of the language, right? All this stupidity would also have put the customer at risk.

Well, the car soon returned to us behind a wrecker because...yup...the brakes failed or, better put, the master cylinder failed. The customer was mad, disappointed, and put off by the whole thing. Happily, I salvaged the relationship with the customer by explaining at great length the need for a new master cylinder and I pointed out that I was explaining it again and we ended up selling her a new one at cost (she paid the labor).

We ended up massaging the menu pricing debacle into something that included a master cylinder, just as I had done with our valued customer to make amends. After that experience, I was determined not to mince words with the customer, no matter how awful the news was.

Customers continued to come in, like the fellow with the $100 AMC Pacer that needed $200 worth of carburetor; a guy who insisted we were gouging him (we pushed the car out of the service bay and off the lot and told him to come get it) or the fellow with the wretched 1939 Chevy coup who wanted the 'lifetime alignment' on his car with a completely wasted front end. When I presented him with an estimate for a totally rebuilt front end (which included the life-time alignment for free), THAT fella chewed me out in front of this kid and told the kid I was just another guy who was out to screw them over. Well, the kid came back with his mother and they apologized for dad's awful behavior because daddy was presently in the hospital after wrapping the old car around a tree (took the hit right in the driver's door by the way). OUCH!

It's always best to tell the customers exactly what they're facing even when the news is bad. People don't go to the grocery cashier with a cart full of food and then stomp their feet if they don't have the scratch to pay for what they want. Some thing applies with auto repairs. If they can't afford it, they shouldn't be there.

Cheers,
TJ
Last edited by m3a1 on June 26th, 2021, 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by rickf » June 26th, 2021, 2:26 pm

Ok, Very eloquently put. BUT, This is not a shop working on a profit margin. It is a forum where I am working on diagnosing vehicles based ONLY on what I am told by the person on the other end of the conversation. So, when I ask them to do something in particular I have a plan in mind for where the diagnosis is headed and if they decide they want to do something else that completely negates what I was doing. But then they still want me to solve the problem. Most people do not realize just how hard it is to diagnose a problem when you cannot see it for yourself, or hear it. I get all kinds of phone calls with "listen to this and tell me what it is". All I hear on a cell phone is noisy static. When I had my business I treated my customers with the utmost respect and I would show them hands on what was wrong and what was needed to fix it. Can't do that online. And like you, I ushered more than one person out of the shop and told them to go ahead and take it to the guy down the street who will do it cheaper, but, do NOT bring it back here later to have me fix his mistakes. And many tried.
I am well know as someone who tells it like I see it. There are several people on Facebook that say I am toxic, I am ruining the hobby. I have done more harm for the M151 hobby than all of the regulations ever devised. Yup. I have heard them all but when I offered to close down the site and disappear the vote was overwhelming to stay right where I was.
There comes a point where I have to say enough is enough n any repair job. If someone is following everything I say I will stay with it for a year if need be but if they are drifting between me and five others then I am going to back out. Let one of the others solve the problem. I am not the only mechanic in the world and I do not claim to be the best either. Someone else can help with that job and I will move on to the next. I do this on 4 different forums now, down from 6 a few years ago. It is a full time job almost except I don't get paid for it. I enjoy helping people, If I didn't I would not be doing this, I never would have taken over this site.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by m3a1 » June 26th, 2021, 3:28 pm

Hey! LOOK AT YOU! You're a Doc-in-the-Box! :lol:

I'm not calling anyone out on the matter. SOMETIMES, approaching a problem from a different direction (such as filling a bell-housing) may make yield some surprising results (Ask Thomas Edison and Henry Ford) so I fully support experimentation at any level so long as it is reasonable. We are all learners, doers, and teachers. By way of example, vinegar is a great solution but as I've said, it softens rust but then you have to remove it. Anything left behind makes for fertile ground for NEW rust. So this experiment may yield positive results, but then, only temporarily. We shall see. I'm happy to see the effort being made and anxious to see what happens.

But in the case of this particular stuck clutch, in order to achieve measurable results I'm afraid one simply has to get in there, take it apart and clean it up and look everything over once -or- accept that any success may be fleeting. That is the balance of it. I think we all agree the condition of that bell housing is a huge hint about what is actually going on inside, yes? So, until it has been taken it apart and fully cleaned it up anything can happen. Fix it right, or fix it twice.

And once one is finally in there, if the customer says, "Make it new again" that is certainly a justifiable and intelligent course of action, given the intrusive nature of the operation.

I would have liked to have gone on to doing a complete valve job on the half track but it just wasn't justifiable at this time given the necessity of getting its mobility back (i.e. worth the risk which I felt was acceptable). So, real world considerations intrude on what would otherwise be a simple equation. Just getting it to move, if only temporarily so that other things can be assessed, IS a real world consideration.

I'm glad you're here for us, Rick. It is a great gift and not to be taken for granted. But some fellas don't live this stuff like some others do (lucky them!) and they make their own path. That said, I cannot remember a time when, with good help and patience, they failed to achieve success...sometimes by a more circuitous route. :lol:

Learning is a process and if teaching is strictly linear, sometimes great, undiscovered things get missed such as how to grease a wheel bearing with a flavor injector left over from the last holiday turkey, or how to make a better light bulb. When I was in grade school teachers were teaching that the continents were simply heaved upwards out of the ocean. I, being having a good eye even at that young age, suggested a theory equatable to continental drift, chiefly because I saw how neatly they might have fit together. That teacher (stupidly) made a joke of it in front of the classroom. Now, continental drift is what is being taught.

He Who Laughs Last.... Har Dee Har-Har!

Personally, get more enjoyment out of tinkering with these machines than I do driving around in 'em. I'd be perfectly happy to have ancient engines thrown at me all day just for the fun of tinkering with em. Weird, huh? There is just something about having a huge chunk of metal staring me in the face and then 'bending it to my will'. Personally, I get a kick out of doing that when everyone else has thrown up their hands and given up. Others just want to get it done and drive it around.....à chacun le sien!

Cheers,
TJ

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by mutt and jeff » June 27th, 2021, 10:12 am

Guys, I certainly did not mean to draw any lines in the sand over this. I was going down one road and now have been advised to stop taking that path and take a new direction. And, tha'ts what the purpose of this and other discussion boards are all about. different ideas from different experience levels and the OP can filter all the information provided and take the path that makes the most sense, right or wrong, to his situation.
In my defense, there is a point on this MUTT where the work needed will be beyond my scope and capabilities. My misguided efforts to solve a major issue with a minor amount of work was to determine if the MUTT was staying here for a possible clutch replacement, or headed somewhere else for transmission rebuild or other engine or running gear work.
Now I am faced with the decision to pull the power pack, as advised, and then investigate what work is needed. If it is beyond me, then someone else is getting a jeep in a tote to work on and put back together.

I am not a shop or business. I offer to help other MVPA members who may know less than I to get or keep their vehicles on the road and tell their story. I do not charge for labor or make money on any parts, so at some point in time, some projects just need to get to someone that does this type of work for a living and the owners will have to pay for that work. We are fast approaching that stage with this MUTT, especially now that I am being advised that I may be doing more harm than good, which is never my intent.

So all work on this clutch is suspended and I will move on to other projects until the vehicle owner decides what is best for him as to how to proceed.


All advice, guideance, and direction is always greatly appreciated.

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by Horst » June 27th, 2021, 10:31 am

The only two specific things you need to pull the power pack is a hoist. I use a manual chain type. Then you might need to fabricate a bar to connect the two lifting rings to the hoist. I welded something simple out of a piece of pipe, pieces of chains and some rings. Other than that, basic tools you already have. Anyone who can do basic maintenance can do this.

Someone doing it the first time probably needs around 3 hours for removal and the same time to put it back. I do it under one hour for each.

The manual does a very good job in providing a step by step instruction, so nothing can go wrong. With some experience there are some shortcuts saving a few minutes here and there but for the first time just follow the book. RTFM!
Horst

1972 USMC M151A2 w/ROPS (ex Barstow) and M416
1962 M201 and trailer
1966 GTO,1982 E350 Skoolie, 1987 SJ413, 1987 911
Gone: 2xM35A2c, Unimog 404S, Hanomag AL28, DKW Munga

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by m3a1 » June 27th, 2021, 12:06 pm

When you're dealing with another person's truck, it's probably not the best time to sail into uncharted waters.

That said, if you have the means of lifting the engine and have made a tiny investment in a engine leveler which can be had for $35 from Harbor Freight (buy one and never look back, friends) and a basic set of tools, pulling the power pack is as easy as 1, 2, 3.

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by rickf » June 27th, 2021, 6:10 pm

I was under the impression that this was your vehicle judging from the title of the thread. Either way the work remains the same for whomever does it. And I agree that there comes a point where a helping hand becomes massive free labor.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Unread post by mutt and jeff » June 27th, 2021, 9:05 pm

Power Pack is coming out. We've got al the toools, engine hoist, fork lift, spreader bar, chains, straps, etc. We'll roll it in the shop, pull the PP and then roll the chassis out from under it and lower it down on a base so that we can seperate the trans and roll it away from the engine. Good time to give the engine a good cleaning and we'll see what it needs. Won't happen for a while, but I promose to get back to this thread or start a new one with what we find and how we rsolve it.
I've got the manuals and I've got access to download thaose that i don't and I've heard the UTube film on removing the power pack produced by Ford as a training fil. Takes you through it step by step.
Looking forward to a new learning experience.

Thanks to all.

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