Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

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mutt and jeff
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Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by mutt and jeff » June 15th, 2021, 1:31 pm

Picked up this A2 and was told by PO that the clutch was stuck to the flywheel and that this jeep ran last September. Well, the starter Bendix is in need of work, so I've pulled the starter and taken it and a second starter up to the shop for testing and repair. So, while the starter is out, I did some shadetree mechanic reading and tried to get the stuck clutch undone by towing it up and down the driveway and popping the clutch. Nothing so far, but the reaction I got from the jeep is making me wonder if I've got something else going on.

While towing forward, with foot on clutch and jeep in gear, the rear wheels lock up and drag. When we unstrap the jeep and let it roll down in reverse, it rolls freely until put into reverse and then the rear tires lock up. Pressing the clutch pedal in and out does not appear to do anything, no noise, no tension on difference on the pedal.

So, stuck clutch to flywheel? And, if so, is there an inspection port that I can try to lubricate and persuade the pressure plate to release? Or is there something else going on with this transmission?

Again, I don't have a starter, so running the engine is not an option at this time. Is it possible that this engine is seized? Why are tires locking up and not turning the engine over?

I'll hang up and listen and check anything suggested and report back.

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muttguru
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by muttguru » June 15th, 2021, 4:40 pm

Robert,

see the post about the size of the drain bolt nearby. It could be that the previous owner unfastened the reverse idler arm bolt when re-filling the transmission. If the idler arm has dropped down into the bottom of the transmission, this could be what is locking the rear wheels. DON'T do any further towing of the vehicle and don't try to start it until you check out whether this is the cause.

Look at the side of the transmission and see if the idler plug is missing or loose. Does the gearshift move smoothly through all the gears while the engine is off?

Let us know what you find.
Ken
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Always wanted - Details and pictures of M416 Trailer data plates & M151 data plates & body-tags for my research. Thanks!

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mutt and jeff
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by mutt and jeff » June 15th, 2021, 5:14 pm

Will go down now and look at drain and idler bolts. Removed top cover as another member suggested for visual inspection of trans and it appears to be in really nice shape. Bright metal, safety wires look new, fluid appears clean and inside of case looks good. Here are pics. I'll go check the bolts now. I wanted to drain fluid and inspect for shavings at some point in time, so this will be a good primer for me.

Also appears that lower pully is moving clockwise when I rotate fan in same direction with all three belts in place. I need to remove spark plugs to relieve compression and I will do that now as well.
trans 1.JPG
trans 2.JPG
trans 3.JPG

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Lou
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by Lou » June 15th, 2021, 7:17 pm

Looks like the reverse idler arm and bolt are intact. :) And it does sound like the clutch is stuck to the flywheel. :shock:
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Louie
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KA2PFL,
MVPA 27368
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by rickf » June 15th, 2021, 9:02 pm

If the clutch plate is rusted to the flywheel then moving the pedal in and out is not doing anything since the plate is frozen to the flywheel and all the pedal does is release the clutch plate. When doing that you need to hold the clutch to the floor the whole time and if it breaks loose then the engine will stop turning. Reverse is a very low gear soo that may be why it is locking the wheels that way, especially if you are trying to turn the engine backwards. You can go underneath and unbolt the transmission clutch cover and see everything from there.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

mutt and jeff
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by mutt and jeff » June 15th, 2021, 9:21 pm

I was going to pull the lower bellhousing inspection cover this evening, but the screws holding it are unforgiving and I don't want to strip the slotted head screws and have a bigger miss, so I'll take a fresh approach to them in the morning. Engine turns over by hand and I feel compression and hear it coming in and out of No 2 when I turn the fan blade by hand.
Now, the interesting part. When I jam the gear shift into third, I can still turn the engine and feel and hear compression on No.1. If the jeep is not moving when I do this, how can I turn the engine by hand in gear?

I'll know more when I pull the inspection cover, but I hope I don't have a few different things going on at the same time, like a rear diff issue as well as a stuck clutch. We don't have a basis of performance on this Mutt, it was not running when it arrived. Only going by PO representation that it ran in September of last year when the starter Bendix went out.

I am pulling a LOT of mud, sand and grease and oil out of the lower crossmembers and transmission mount area. So, when it ran, it had fun.

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svramselaar
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by svramselaar » June 16th, 2021, 6:28 am

hi

your gearbox sits at 4è gear (price direct)
put the gears at neutral and at the lid also
now you have the lid off check the the reverce spring
feel if the spring works the shifter must be push heavier to the reverce gear
now it is easy to repair it
put first a starter at the engine and start it with the clutch down 2è gear
while you start the mutt go driving
hold the cluch pedal down give throtle and brake the clutch wil go free if you are lucky :D

george

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by rickf » June 16th, 2021, 9:01 am

Once you have the inspection cover off if I remember correctly you will have access to the side of the clutch. Wedge a board between the seat and clutch pedal to hold it to the floor and then go under and first make sure the clutch plate is actually pulling away from the disc. If it is then you can probably break the disc loose with a combination of tools like putty knives, screwdrivers, hammers. Wear a mask since you will probably get a face full of dirt and clutch material.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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m3a1
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by m3a1 » June 16th, 2021, 9:34 am

Did you see all that rust inside the port where the starter goes?

SOMEBODY WENT SWIMMING! :oops:

mutt and jeff
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by mutt and jeff » June 16th, 2021, 1:35 pm

The fact that the starter had a rusty shaft that the Bendix would not clim, and the PO said he cleaned up some rust and it worked for a while and then rusted again is a big moister indicator to me. While trying to get the inspectover cover off last night, there was a lot soild and grease jammed up into the crossmembers and it is very sandy. Creek bottom?

I'll clean up starter mounting face to insure good ground while it is

Still have not got cover off, but confirmed that we CANNOT turn the engine by the jeep in gear, so fingers crossed that this is just a stuck clutch. If I get the clutch free and still not starter, l tow it up and wn the drive again and see what we get.

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by rickf » June 16th, 2021, 2:18 pm

Before you put the starter in spray a ton of PB Blaster or WD-40 in there or even dump a half gallon of diesel fuel in there. Make sure the fording plug is in the fording position blocking the bell housing drain to try to keep the stuff in there and that might work on those cover screws a bit.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

whirook
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by whirook » June 16th, 2021, 4:12 pm

Possibility I experienced few years ago.
One of clutch disk springs broke and jammed up the clutch. Hopefully not the problem you are having but something to be aware of!

mutt and jeff
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by mutt and jeff » June 16th, 2021, 8:26 pm

Well, got the cover off, had to remove drive shaft to get it out and see what we got. A lot of rust and crud, so, yes, under water at some point in time. Fording square plug and another bolt in the direct bottom both sealed up, so no way to breathe or drain. We have sprayed some PB Blaster through the starter opening and also at the bottom where we could. Rotating the engine by hand and trying to get the entire edge. Clutch pedal is jammed with wood strip to seat in the depressed position.
Pics of a lot of rust at the flywheel and clutch assembly. Tried to work in a putty knife and broke the handle tapping it in with a hammer. Hope we are in the right area. Presume right up against the face of the flywheel, and that there is not a mateing surface or some other raised area on the flywheel that we are trying to pry off.
I keep listening for a loud "ping" if this thing lets go during the night. Fingers crossed. If not, we will keep PB Blasting and tapping unless someone sees something in the pic that indicates something else is the issue.
inspection cover.JPG
clutch 1.JPG
clutch 2.JPG

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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by rickf » June 16th, 2021, 8:45 pm

I am going to guess that the clutch disc is swollen and the clutch plate is probably not fully releasing. I would adjust the linkage so there is no free play at the beginning of the pedal travel and maybe even go a bit further if it will go without forcing it. and then push it to the floor again while someone is down there watching to see if the plate is moving away from the disc. And yes, you should be able to get a putty knife between the disc and the flywheel or between the disc and the plate. One side of the disc or the other. It needs to be free on both sides for the engine and transmission to totally disconnect. With the adjustment I suggested the clutch plate will move pretty far from the disc and you would not be able to drive it like that as the clutch would just slip but this will give you extra clearance to work with. And if it does break loose then it will allow some slipping to get rid of some of the rust. Then you can readjust it back to normal. If you have put a lot of stuff on it then it may or may not work right. It will slip for a while but it could dry out and start working.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Lou
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Re: Help me ID/resolve clutch issue

Post by Lou » June 16th, 2021, 8:50 pm

Wow, that is very rusty! :cry: Going to bet that the splines on the transmission and the clutch disk are frozen. This prevents the clutch disk from sliding forward and backward on the transmission input shaft. And this of course could be the source of the stuck clutch. Rick has it right, spray the crap out of everything in there with special attention to where the clutch disk meets the transmission input shaft.

Hope you can free it without pulling the power pack. But in all honesty you know a new clutch and throw out bearing are needed in the future. Wonder what the face of the flywheel looks like? :?
Take Care,
Louie
M151A2,
KA2PFL,
MVPA 27368
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