Coil interchangeability?

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mutt and jeff
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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by mutt and jeff » November 22nd, 2020, 1:52 pm

I know just enough about this subject to be classified as an ignoramoose at Cracker Barrel. But two random thoughts.
One, if these Chinese coils are such crap and some have gone through several, isn't there one out there that someone can cut open and see what the electronics are inside one?
And, two... I thought the cooling fins on the distributor base were for a heat sink that the coil would rest on and help disapate heat. Wouldn't a ballast or any other device on the bottom of the coil interfere with that process?

And, what I'm hearing is that pursuing a resistor on the power wire coming into the distributor to reduce voltage to the coil would not help in the Chinese coils have a ballast or resistor inside them already.

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m3a1
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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by m3a1 » November 22nd, 2020, 4:54 pm

Ken, I cannot say as the item has been sold and I have no additional pictures with which to make a reference. If the buyer wants to come forward, that's up to him.

To the matter of an external resistor we are comparing apples and oranges when it comes to the comparison between Chinese coils and the US coils so until someone cuts into one, everything will only be conjecture.

But, OH! ....if it were that simple.

All that said, I think we would do very well to support DeBella's efforts. If his product needs a little tweaking to make it 'just right' the only way that will happen is if folks get on board and help support the effort.

My personal experiences with the chinese coils have all been good (save for one) and that was a long time ago before I was even aware the their questionable reputation. But, I am not the guy that drives and drives and drives his MUTT for hours upon hours. Most of my time was spent locally; just short hops around town. So there is that.

Wishing all of you the best with this coil situation. Mayhap we are getting close to a solution. Until then....there are always Gama Goats which have diesels, of course so those ignition goodies are completely unnecessary. Go DIESEL! :lol:

Cheers,
TJ

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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by rickf » November 22nd, 2020, 5:38 pm

Cutting open a coil is an iffy proposition. the older original coils were filled with dioxin oil and the last thing you want to do is let that stuff out let alone get it on you. It will go right through your skin. Really bad stuff. I don't know what the Chinese use but I would bet it is probably the same thing since they seem to have absolutely no regard for health or environment. I have had a least 5 Chinese coils fail on me and I also know of three more in other vehicles personally. Raymond, one of the other mods here, put one in his and when he turned on the ignition it blew up! As in BANG. Never even ran. And I have seen a couple dead right out of the box.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by m3a1 » November 22nd, 2020, 6:01 pm

D
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E
L

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Lou
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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by Lou » November 22nd, 2020, 9:15 pm

If someone can send me both a bad chinese and a bad NOS coil, I would be willing to perform surgery on them and document it like I did with the coil testing video on Youtube. Then we will all know once and for all what the differences are inside. A 10 thousand volts difference is huge and the chinese and black coil are not the answer. :?
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raymond
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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by raymond » November 22nd, 2020, 9:38 pm

Dioxins are a class of chemicals. The main ingredient in old dielctric oils, the thing that made them electrically resistant as well as thermally stable, was PCB, aka polychlorinated biphenyl. All dioxins are PCBs, but not all PCBs are dioxin. Dioxin is an unwanted by-product of PCB productions. Many, but not all coils can contain PCB oils, and that is only for coils made before 1979. And it was only for coils that did not use Shell dielectric oils, at the time marketed under the names of Diala, and Diala AX. None of Shell's dielectric oils have EVER contained PCBs. Shell produced an oil with all the necessary protections against electrical conductivity as well as thermal stability without using PCB oils. That was always one of their sales points.

If you have an old coil that has failed, use rubber gloves to clean it up. It is not like some sort of nerve agent like VX or Sarin. It is not instant death. There are still millions of electrical transformers, the type you see at every substation, and on every pole, still in use. But it is still something to not get directly on your skin. While it's toxicity is low, it's negative effects are cumulative.

Now for the supposed use of an internal resistor on the Chinese "chrome coils": I suspect it is true, and that it is an internally variable resistor, which would explain the lack of a difference in output with 12 vs. 24 volt input. With an internally variable resistor, the resistance increases as voltage increases.

This would explain a lot. Namely that the Chinese manufacturer knew that as voltage increased, so would heat, and that would shorten the life of a product they knew to not be made to the same quality standards as U.S. companies such as Prestolite.
Raymond


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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by rickf » November 22nd, 2020, 9:40 pm

m3a1 wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 6:01 pm
D
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S
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L
Careful, I can make that Gamma Goat thread and it's DIESEL disappear! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Oh, And tell us about those tires on the Gamma Goat, I understand they are about as easy to come by as M series coils, AND about as cheap. :twisted: :twisted: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by 12Bravo » November 23rd, 2020, 6:49 am

I can tell you all about them, NOS ones will crack the side walls after mounted and aired up. The dealer in Tn. where I bought 2 wanted $ 400.00 a tire to ship to S. Ill, I'm about 4 hours from them, I told the man he was crazy, I got on U-ship and had them to my door for $100.00. Then on all that ,they charge sales tax, Fed Highway tax, because the size of the tire qualifies it as a semi tire. But with all of that, the Goat is one vehicle I know of no other that will follow it except a track. You either love them or hate them. I'm on the Goat site on Facebook and this one butter bar swears that no Goats were in Nam even though he was not there. Others follow suit because they have read that non were sent to Nam .Rick can tell you otherwise . Anyone have any pictures of a goat in Nam so I can shut that guy up.

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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by rickf » November 23rd, 2020, 9:47 am

Lou wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 9:15 pm
If someone can send me both a bad chinese and a bad NOS coil, I would be willing to perform surgery on them and document it like I did with the coil testing video on Youtube. Then we will all know once and for all what the differences are inside. A 10 thousand volts difference is huge and the chinese and black coil are not the answer. :?
I am pretty sure I still have a bad NOS coil out in the shed I can send you, or drop it off for that matter. I will look today.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by Lou » November 23rd, 2020, 9:51 am

raymond wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 9:38 pm
Dioxins are a class of chemicals. The main ingredient in old dielctric oils, the thing that made them electrically resistant as well as thermally stable, was PCB, aka polychlorinated biphenyl. All dioxins are PCBs, but not all PCBs are dioxin. Dioxin is an unwanted by-product of PCB productions. Many, but not all coils can contain PCB oils, and that is only for coils made before 1979. And it was only for coils that did not use Shell dielectric oils, at the time marketed under the names of Diala, and Diala AX. None of Shell's dielectric oils have EVER contained PCBs. Shell produced an oil with all the necessary protections against electrical conductivity as well as thermal stability without using PCB oils. That was always one of their sales points.

If you have an old coil that has failed, use rubber gloves to clean it up. It is not like some sort of nerve agent like VX or Sarin. It is not instant death. There are still millions of electrical transformers, the type you see at every substation, and on every pole, still in use. But it is still something to not get directly on your skin. While it's toxicity is low, it's negative effects are cumulative.

Now for the supposed use of an internal resistor on the Chinese "chrome coils": I suspect it is true, and that it is an internally variable resistor, which would explain the lack of a difference in output with 12 vs. 24 volt input. With an internally variable resistor, the resistance increases as voltage increases.

This would explain a lot. Namely that the Chinese manufacturer knew that as voltage increased, so would heat, and that would shorten the life of a product they knew to not be made to the same quality standards as U.S. companies such as Prestolite.
IMG_2018.JPG
IMG_2017.JPG
Sure like to know what health effects I am going to have. This is a supposedly NOS coil I purchased from
Bernie Matyniak (KC Gonzo on eBay). It has been leaking oil all over my home workbench since March 22 and has not been replaced yet. It has a contract date of 1977 so according to your post it has PCB oil it. That photo is how much leaks out the bottom overnight, after a week that paper towel is saturated and has to be changed. This is not great news to hear. :!:
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Take Care,
Louie
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mutt and jeff
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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by mutt and jeff » November 23rd, 2020, 10:15 am

I've got that plastic dog eared coil shown in my previous post photo that is available if it would help as an organ donor. I've also got my weeping coil that I have posted a pic of, I believe that I can remove and donate to the research if that helps.

Let me know.

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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by m3a1 » November 23rd, 2020, 12:45 pm

Well, fellas. This isn't rocket science..

THIS is rocket science!
IMG_3940.jpeg
I will begin with this. I have had extensive practical (as opposed to theoretical) training on how to operate in toxic environments all over the country, including three visits to the Cobra Facility in Anniston, Alabama. The chemical agent employed in our training environment there was VX (nerve agent). Just about the worst stuff known to man, IMHO. One of the chief lessons taught in this sort of training is - always protect your skin & protect your airway. This applies to people everywhere at all times.

The main point here is, take all reasonable precautions not to get unknown stuff on your skin or in your lungs. Most of us wouldn't allow that coil goop to get on us just because it's so darned icky. But if you are one of those people who just 'can't not touch'...well, we probably can't help you.

Some of the gear-head productions on youtube show you fellas (who would have you believe they're totally old-school busted knuckle types, despite the fact they have their ears tucking INTO their flat-billed ball caps) and they make sure they get on video actually licking the dipsticks on barn-find cars. Yeaaaaaaah. You do that....but ya know what? Even though I'm just an dull witted Ohio farm boy, I really think I'll have to pass.

So, glove-up anytime you're handling one of these coils that has puked its guts (or when handling any unknown), or if you have no gloves, just be careful to use a good thick rag or other suitable barrier. And, let's leave momma's kitchen towels out of this process, shall we?

Also, don't aerosolize the contents if there is risk that you might inhale the stuff. All of this is simply a matter of precaution and due diligence, just as we do with ANY messy liquids or semi-liquids on our vehicles.

Now, if you feel you must cut into one, don't use a cut off wheel or a band saw (which could cut into the juicy bits and fling it into the air at warp gazillion) also leaving you with a tool that must also be cleaned up. Just a really bad idea, non?

Most of us have enough experience to know how to get through a piece of metal when it has to be done delicately but that's all I'm going to say about that.

THINK before you do this, and ask yourself a simple question. "Once I get one open, THEN what do I do?" I'm not a coil doctor, or I would have opened one already. I don't know what I'm looking at and I don't know what I'm looking for, so thanks, but no thanks. In this case, I'll be happy to leave the dirty work to someone else.

BUT, cleaning our distributor housing once it has been gooped up IS necessary. Cleaning out a messy distributor housing can be achieved with repeated doses of Naptha in an open air environment. Just swirl it around and let it do its work, then pour the solution out into an environmentally friendly container and repeat the process until she's clean. Naptha does a good job in this regard.

But remember, if your lazy and if you just pour the stuff out any old place, guess what will be left when the Naptha off-gasses. That's right. Congratulations! You just made a miniature Superfund Site. Then, one day your dog rolls in it, then you pet your dog and you're right back where you started, right? !!?RIGHT?!! But, do this stuff the right way and all will be well.

Reasonable PPE and a bucket full of common sense is really all you need.

There are plenty of things and places that we encounter in life that are bad for our health. According to my pulmonologist, my time spent it Afghanistan and getting blown up (twice!) left my lungs looking like I had tuberculosis. (Yes, the air there IS that bad....not to mention the bombs.) I'm not whining. I accept that it was all necessary to get the job done. Cutting into a coil...maybe not so necessary.

Here, we are speculating which is based on very good corroborative evidence provided by one of our truly expert members (thank you, Raymond) that the goop in these coils is also that bad...but you don't need to run out of the room screaming like your hair is on fire if you encounter it and yes, this has all been talked about before. It may well be that this is worthy of a sticky, eh?

Learning how to handle chemicals safely is part of this hobby and frankly, it's not that tough.
51cRpXmg+OL._AC_SY606_.jpg
Cheers,
TJ
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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by rickf » November 23rd, 2020, 5:52 pm

I guess I really should not have blown out those brake drums for all those years huh? That and Imron paint, a couple of the things they didn't tel us about until long after the fact.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by raymond » November 23rd, 2020, 9:44 pm

Manufacture of PCB containing oils was outlawed in the U.S. in 1979.

Truth is, due to litigation, most manufacture of PCBs cease well before the cutoff date.

Once again, not all dielectric oil manufactures used PCB containing oils.

And once again, PCB oils don't all contain dioxin, at least in quantities to cause harm.

And once again, PCB exposure is cumulative, so wear gloves when handling a failed USGI coil, especially one with an unknown manufacture date.

You aren't going to die. Although as a side effect, your children, should you have any in the future, will probably be born naked.

So relax, and take it easy..............at least until I finally realize my perennial New Year's Resolution of conquering the planet and enslaving the entire human population.



When that happens, you should be VERY AFRAID. :idea: :!:
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Re: Coil interchangeability?

Unread post by raymond » November 23rd, 2020, 9:57 pm

BTW, it is not just military coils, but any other automotive civilian coil, or electric transformer, voltage converter, rectifier, or inverter, whether in an automotive application, or in such consumer products as radios, TVs, electric motors, fans, capacitors, etc. that all potentially carry dioxin tainted PCB oils in electrical parts. Any electrical part with a winding or needing an electrically insulating oil could potentially carry dioxin tainted PCB oils.
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"On the day when crime puts on the apparel of innocence, through a curious reversal peculiar to our age, it is innocence that is called on to justify itself." Albert Camus

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