m151 proerty diposal

[svramselaar]

hi

we know it all
i found this
https://www.gao.gov/assets/160/150094.pdf


george

[m75]

Thanks George, this was the first time I've seen the DoD's position on keeping the M151 from civilian ownership.

I still wonder how the noticeable number of trucks we own did manage to trickle out in one piece to the current owners. My first M151 was one of those released from DoD through assistance to local Civil Defense agencies, in my case a local fire department in Oklahoma that painted every piece of metal the most brilliant red I've seen. It had a civilian title, similar to my current one. And the current one had a "brother" in the next yard, also licensed.

[Fil Bonica]

George,
Fascinating reading!
Going to print and read completely
Fortunately it is old history and was overlooked by many.

Fil Bonica

[salt6]

I think you'll need to look further into the no release to the public policy date.

[kmam]

The big concern was the high risk of roll over when used on sealed roads, a risk identified by use in service. It would be interesting to know how many of the M151s in private hands have suffered roll overs? Maybe the risk is as great when owned by enthusiasts but it occurs much less frequently because they understand the issues and drive accordingly? It could be that making it difficult to obtain one was a good solution as it kept them out of the hands of joe public as only enthusiasts would go to the trouble and cost of getting one on the road? Just a thought...

[rickf]

I want to see a comparison between the M151 and the M38A1 on roll overs. Might as well add in the deuce and five ton. There were a half dozen people killed in several rollovers of those trucks right on the road on the ranges next to me. The solution? The straightened out the turns in the road! How many HMMWV's have rolled, especially after uparmoring? Political BS. How many CJ Jeeps have rolled? It seems to me that in the last ten years just about all of the regular cars are rolling, none of them slide anymore. And ALL SUV's will roll given the same circumstances they use for the M151 tests, why don't they ban all SUV's? They banned the Corvair but not the VW Beetle. I rolled a Beetle on the road because of a fast maneuver. {well, it was a bit of a drastic one but after the roll we pushed it back on it's wheels and picked up the side window which popped out and drove off.)

[kmam]

Spot on. My wife rolled my Jeep Wrangler TJ doing 25kph when she clipped the "safety feature" in the middle of the road, designed to slow traffic by making them drive around it instead of going in a straight line! They didn't ban the Wranglers but I have banned my wife from driving my MUTT

[m3a1]

Early design issues notwithstanding, consider this -

Almost EVERYONE who was rolling these grew up driving and hot-rodding straight axle cars and trucks so the idea of no longer being able to haul buns around corners wasn't yet really firmly cemented in everyone's thinking. And among other problems, there were going to be plenty of straight axle options still in use as the M151 series was phased in. One day you're driving a M38A1 and the next, you're driving a M151. What the heck did everyone think was going to happen?!! People get busy, get in a hurry, get distracted, and often times simply forget themselves....just as they still do today.

In my opinion, a large part of this rolling-over stuff can be attributed to that and to poor training because again, these were even new to the trainers! Which is not to say the training was wholly inadequate but how do you teach people where 'the edges of the performance envelope are' when it comes to roll-overs? It's much like the difficulties associated with teaching someone how to crash land an airplane. Too many variables and far too dangerous to actually do and so, the training syllabus consists of a lot of theory and a few gory films. Nope. All one can really do is lay out the rules and hope the guy who is driving the truck doesn't forget what he's driving at those critical moments.

All of this blame really gets down to a matter of degrees....but to place blame in one place is just a cheap attempt to smooth things over, rather than to seek out the truth of the matter, but, of course the military is NEVER wrong, so absolutely NO ONE was going to say, "Hey, we have a new breed of vehicle here and there are going to be some growing pains until we get everyone on board and used to the new rules of behavior behind the wheel.

My two cents.

Cheers,
TJ

[Mark]

I guess the rule I had when driving the 151 was 20-- 25MPH was the max when making a turn, even then no real sharp turns.Then i read that backing up a m151 and turning is even more likely for a turn over.I am off the subject maybe I should start a new post? Maybe delete this one?

[rickf]

The truth of the matter was that AMC was making a killing selling Jeeps to the civilian market and the last thing they needed was the market flooded with military M-151's. At that time they had enough political clout that they could pull the right strings to get this done to keep the 151 off the market. Hell, the CJ-5 would roll just as easily. I raced VW's off road and on for many years with the very same suspension that the M-151 has and they exhibited the very same characteristics. This was not something that was new or unknown, the Beetle had been around since 1939! In 1967 VW changed to the four joint rear axle suspension. They would still roll. The last one I rolled was a 69. And you know how? Backing up and making a fast turn! Same exact thing as a 151.

[raymond]

Anyone who has driven a tractor knows you don't drive fast in reverse and then make a sudden turn.

Modern cars may roll over, rather than slide, as Rick postulated, perhaps because tires on modern cars are wider than they used to be and the grip or traction is greater than it used to be, especially modern radials vs. bias ply tires.

[Horst]

First of all I am proud to own and drive one of the most dangerous trucks of the US Army / Marines...

The whole document focuses on how badly the demill process was done, how bad the documentation was handled and how the jeeps were sold. Seems like quite a few guys at the DRMO made some extra dollars selling perfectly good jeeps and parts to the public.

Not sure on some details, report talks about M151 from the Philippines, pretty sure they mixed up things, similar to when they talk about "frames"

[m3a1]

Read the article and look at all of the dates. The genie had long been out of the bottle by the time this report was distributed! This report came very late in the game. True, the whole safety issue was what got the ball rolling but ultimately what the report is about is the DoD's problems in controlling the disposal of their equipment. The fact is, if twenty trucks don't show up for disposal, nobody really loses much sleep over the matter. It's still embarrassing because while little trucks are small potatoes, other equipment is not and if you can't control something is simple as a truck, what chance do you have with other, more sophisticated stuff?

By the time of this report, 148,000 units had been turned in out of the 184,000 produced (as per the report), leaving a mere 36,000 units out there to be dealt with (and probably fewer than that by the time the whole thing got distributed, responses made and final publication of the assembled document). By that time, everyone must have known there was really no undoing the particular matter of "proper" disposal of the M151 series of truck. Consider that with only a mere 36,000 units left to dispose of they might just as easily have said directed the total destruction of what was left and yet, there are many A2s out there so that simply didn't happen.

I agree in a limited way with Rick's assessment that AMC was, very likely, bending their congressman's ear on the matter, not because a small percentage of those 148,000 units were actually hurting their civilian business, but rather, as a matter of future policy. (One must keep in mind there are thousands and thousands of used cars coming onto the civilian market with each new model year but when times are tough for auto manufacturers, every sale counts. AMC was doing their level best but history shows us they weren't exactly having a heyday.

Willys had a long history of letting the civilian market pay for the research and development needed for their military product and letting the military pay for the research and development needed for their civilian market. The real 'cause celebre'? Whether your company is called Willys, AMC, or American General, this is a business model that made and still makes great sense for manufacturers -but- the bedrock principle needed for it to work is that the two markets, civilian and military, must never be allowed to mix. The theorem is a proven one and we see the same sort of friction being generated today, with the release of HMMWVs to the civilian market.

[rickf]

Anyone who has driven a tractor knows you don't drive fast in reverse and then make a sudden turn.

Nope, You just drive fast in reverse and hang on one brake with the wheels straight. Pop it in neutral as it comes around and as the forward speed matches the trans slide it in gear and away you go without ever stopping. Just got to be on the right type of ground and not swinging the nose around on the low side of a hill.

[SEABEE62]

Rickf would know.....he's a Farmer in NJ too ! Seabee