Boiled

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m3a1
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Boiled

Unread post by m3a1 » March 18th, 2019, 7:53 pm

So, most everyone here knows about what happens when you, or someone you know leaves the master switch on for some time in a M151 or vehicle with a similar distributor without the engine running. For those of you who do not, I managed to grab a few shots from today's resurrection on a M151A2 that was not my own but unfortunately, I missed getting a shot of the coil and, alas, it was one of the USGI coils which are becoming harder and harder to obtain.

If you've had the misfortune of boiling your coil you may have found a black, tar-like substance coming from the bottom of the coil where the black potting material, kind of like an asphalt cap that is used to seal the bottom of the coil. You may also find it coming from much higher up and weeping out of the joint between the phenolic resin cap of the coil and the metal body. Any crack or crevice is fair game when the sticky stuff comes out! You may also find it pooled in and around the center contact at the top of the coil and it may even have made its way down into the well of the distributor housing where the coil lives. In any case, the stuff that's supposed to be inside the coil is now outside the coil and there's no way of getting that genie back into the bottle.

What you may not have known or even thought about is this - if you are running an electronic ignition, all that pent up energy and heat doesn't stay just in the coil. Nope. It also goes to the chassis of the ignition module and that heat is quite capable of melting the weatherproofing material that covers the electronic circuit board. That melted material then may dribble down onto the mechanical spark advance located beneath the module and it may stick the components together into a mass sufficiently solid keep the centrifugal weights from moving outward. No movement = no advance. So, there are quite a few things that need to be checked if the master switch is left on for an excessive amount of time without the engine running. Don't stop with just the coil. Look over the entire distributor.

Oddly, all this boiling, and melting does not necessarily mean the assured and immediate death of these components, though the now-exposed circuit board of the electronic ignition will eventually fail if it becomes corroded or if the heat destroys one of the electrical gizmos on the board or even damages a solder joint.... and if enough material gets boiled out of the coil the internals will short out.

What this does mean is you're in for a clean-up job. Most of the heftier solvents like MEK will get the job done handily but afterwards, remember to ensure that the internals of your distributor housing are thoroughly dry before reassembling and firing things up. Later posts in this thread suggest in a the strongest possible terms that PPE (personal protective equipment) is always a good idea when cleaning up chemical spills. So, yes, DO glove up and avoid contact with the stuff, bag your rags and don't burn them in the back yard and stand in the smoke! (MEK isn't good for you either, by the way!)

Can an electronic ignition be re-sealed and reused if they have not died in the process? At this time I do not know but I hope to find out. If everything inside is unharmed I do not see why it could not be done.

Can an electronic ignition fail one moment and then run just fine after sitting for a while? I can answer that with a definitive YES. With these, dead is not necessarily always dead. I have had that experience first hand with electronic ignition modules (even ones that have not been boiled). I cannot say exactly why it was living-dying-living-dying but its weaker spark and eventual failure seemed to have been mostly related to heat, which is the one constant I can say was definitely at work each time I used the part and cycled it through the process of life-to-(however temporary)-death.

As with anything like this, relying upon a potentially damaged component to get you from point A to point B always ends up being a roll of the dice so, the best course of action is to see if your possibly damaged component will continue to run and if it does, replace it anyway just as soon as possible and then maybe hang onto the old one as a spare. Nobody likes to be seen standing along the side of the road with their dead MUTT. You know people are driving by in their very sensible family car in a very conservative color, and pointing at you and your predicament and telling their kids, "See there, kids? That's what happens to you when you take the road less traveled!" If only we were sensible folk as well, eh?

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And finally, spring seems to have finally arrived here in Texas so I'm doing a little spring cleaning and rearranging.... Loving my 762 trailer!
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Cheers,
TJ
Last edited by m3a1 on March 19th, 2019, 5:23 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Boiled

Unread post by Surveyor » March 18th, 2019, 8:09 pm

m3a1 wrote: tar like substance … where the black potting material (like and asphalt cap)
Supposedly highly carcinogenic. Don't mess with without gloves.
1960 M151 Run #1
"There is one nut on a M151 that is very difficult to remove....." - K8icu
"She ain't a Cadillac and she ain't a Rolls, But there ain't nothin' wrong with the radio" - Aaron Tippin
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Re: Boiled

Unread post by rickf » March 18th, 2019, 8:30 pm

If you find oil in the bottom of the distributor under the coil that is the stuff you do NOT want to get on you. That oil is a PCB heat transfer compound and is highly toxic. Consider that most of this equipment was made in the 60's and 70's, before this stuff was outlawed. And for that matter also consider that NOS brake shoes are most likely asbestos lined shoes. This is something that most people under the age of 35 have never had to deal with. And never thought they would ever come in contact with. It is still out there folks.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Re: Boiled

Unread post by Hambone » March 18th, 2019, 8:45 pm

I bought a distributor at a swap meet last year, same thing had happened, the potting in the electronic ignition had turned to goo, I thought about trying to re-pot it with epoxy.

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Re: Boiled

Unread post by m3a1 » March 18th, 2019, 9:46 pm

Well I know the stuff in the big transformers you see around town is loaded with PCBs. I'd be interested to know exactly what is in those coils. I've not seen any markings on the "modern" coil boxes that suggests they contain a hazardous material. I'm not claiming they aren't or denying anyone's info here, but I just haven't seen anything that says they are or exactly what that material is.

I'm rather sure what is on the E-ignition is something else entirely.

I'm curious. Does anyone have a definitive source?

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raymond
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Re: Boiled

Unread post by raymond » March 18th, 2019, 10:11 pm

None of Shell's dielectric oils have ever contained PCBs. We used to sell a lot of it. And most, if not all utilities have long ago got rid of the PCBs in their transformers. At least in the big ones. On the big transformers, the oil is changed out at set intervals.

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Re: Boiled

Unread post by Mark » March 18th, 2019, 11:12 pm

I can remember in the early 80's we'd take the tops off of distribution transformers, then reach in to change the taps, wipe the oil off of our hands.Then later on they wised up to the PCBs, used to test the oil, R&R the TF if not in a certain %
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1960 m151
1981 m151A2
1964 m416
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Re: Boiled

Unread post by rickf » March 19th, 2019, 10:11 am

Maybe Shell did not use PCB's but my guess would be that Shell was more expensive and the coils used by the government had to come in under a bid so I would bet they were cheap coils and made with cheap products. I took a coil I had that cook to work and had it tested in the lab and when I went to get it they had it bagged five deep and labeled as hazmat material. I didn't even have to ask. The professor asked me politely to please not bring anything like that in again as it was at the top of the hazmat scale! You can bet that the coils coming from China do not conform to ANY laws concerning what can or can't be used inside of them.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Re: Boiled

Unread post by rickf » March 19th, 2019, 10:20 am

And as far as bigger transformers we had one on the ground behind one of our buildings that had been damaged when a crane toppled over and just caught the corner of it and it was pissing out a stream of oil. The power company came out and all was calm for about ten minutes and then the hazmat tape came out. Barricades were set up, all kinds of oil spill mats were laid down and a specially labeled truck was brought in to suck the oil out of the transformer. Then they dug out any contaminated soil all the while in full hazmat gear. Lifted the transformer and bagged and wrapped it several times and replaced it. And all of this was done while working around the crane which was laying on its side 2 feet from where they had to work. Tough working conditions!
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

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Re: Boiled

Unread post by m3a1 » March 19th, 2019, 11:03 am

Well, we are once again getting way off on a tangent for what was to be an instructional piece about boiling a coil, meant chiefly for people who may be new to all of this. So, I added a small bit to my original post about use of PPE which probably should have been there in the first place.

Old school is not always cool. Modern ways of doing things have eclipsed the old ways. It's no longer acceptable to expose your kids to secondhand smoke or to always have a lit cigarette stuck to your lower lip, or to drive without using safety belts, or have unknown chemicals on your skin or do almost everything our parents consistently did to us when we were kids.

Bottom line is, boxes of good quality latex gloves and mountains of personal protective equipment are stacked high on the retailer's shelves. (even at places like Harbor Freight they are very affordable even before the 20% coupon). Use em. 8)

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Re: Boiled

Unread post by Vzike » March 19th, 2019, 1:51 pm

Great post TJ. I got a lot out of it.

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Re: Boiled

Unread post by Mark » March 19th, 2019, 2:55 pm

This is some very good info about the coil/distributor contaminants, I could see myself sticking my fingers in it!
mark


1968 m274A5
1960 m151
1981 m151A2
1964 m416
1971 m416

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Re: Boiled

Unread post by Surveyor » March 19th, 2019, 3:12 pm

Apologies for leading thread astray. Having been through a year of chemo and rad (while in), I don't wish that crap on anybody here. Good info and warning in op.
1960 M151 Run #1
"There is one nut on a M151 that is very difficult to remove....." - K8icu
"She ain't a Cadillac and she ain't a Rolls, But there ain't nothin' wrong with the radio" - Aaron Tippin
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Re: Boiled

Unread post by m3a1 » March 19th, 2019, 5:19 pm

No, no....I missed the boat on PPE and should have added it in the first place. Fixed it!

Cheers,
TJ

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