Beverly Hillbillies
Moderators: rickf, raymond, Mr. Recovery
Re: Beverly Hillbillies
Terrific. I thought as much. We stayed well within those margins.
Re: Beverly Hillbillies
Another beautiful day today and I spent most of it doing things for other folks around here. When I finally got to it, my automotive work was cut short by a huge storm bearing down on us like a freight train. So it was 'pick up the tools and skedaddle'..
I managed to get two drums cleaned, masked and in primer. In regards to masking the face of the drums, masking isn't necessarily an art per se but there are some tips to masking worth knowing. The first is, the amount of time it takes to do a good masking job usually takes at least 10x longer than the painting process. Once you get that through your noggin and stop rushing to get to the part that's pleasing (i.e. laying paint) things go better.
In this case, the cleaning and masking took about 30-40x longer than the painting process. The cleaning was achieved by a wire cup chucked up in a reversible, variable speed drill, and a regular pedestal mounted wire wheel. Primer and paint is going on these drums to prolong the life of the drums and to help assure that they won't rust-weld themselves to the hub drive flanges. The added bonus is, down the road, it lets the next guy know someone before him had paid a least a little bit of attention to the brakes and cared enough about the quality of work to spend some time painting something that honestly works just as well without paint.
Masking is far easier when done bit by bit and piece by piece. Trying to wrangle a long piece of tape to achieve a seamless mask is a complete waste of time and often, it ends up being a waste of tape. I wasn't looking for perfect margins down in the drum but they are quite close.
I told the fella doing the machine work that I would rather he do a minimal facing on the drum to allow for a second refacing a long way down the road, rather than try to do what some guys do which is remove every smidge of blemish no matter what the cost to the drum. I was happy to see that he took my advice. All of my drums came back smooth and ready for service but some had extremely minor blemishes here and there. It's really refreshing to find people who actually listen to the customer.
Most of the cleaning has already been done to the other two drums so getting them ready for coating should go quick...if the weather ever stops being so fussy.
Cheers,
TJ`
I managed to get two drums cleaned, masked and in primer. In regards to masking the face of the drums, masking isn't necessarily an art per se but there are some tips to masking worth knowing. The first is, the amount of time it takes to do a good masking job usually takes at least 10x longer than the painting process. Once you get that through your noggin and stop rushing to get to the part that's pleasing (i.e. laying paint) things go better.
In this case, the cleaning and masking took about 30-40x longer than the painting process. The cleaning was achieved by a wire cup chucked up in a reversible, variable speed drill, and a regular pedestal mounted wire wheel. Primer and paint is going on these drums to prolong the life of the drums and to help assure that they won't rust-weld themselves to the hub drive flanges. The added bonus is, down the road, it lets the next guy know someone before him had paid a least a little bit of attention to the brakes and cared enough about the quality of work to spend some time painting something that honestly works just as well without paint.
Masking is far easier when done bit by bit and piece by piece. Trying to wrangle a long piece of tape to achieve a seamless mask is a complete waste of time and often, it ends up being a waste of tape. I wasn't looking for perfect margins down in the drum but they are quite close.
I told the fella doing the machine work that I would rather he do a minimal facing on the drum to allow for a second refacing a long way down the road, rather than try to do what some guys do which is remove every smidge of blemish no matter what the cost to the drum. I was happy to see that he took my advice. All of my drums came back smooth and ready for service but some had extremely minor blemishes here and there. It's really refreshing to find people who actually listen to the customer.
Most of the cleaning has already been done to the other two drums so getting them ready for coating should go quick...if the weather ever stops being so fussy.
Cheers,
TJ`
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Re: Beverly Hillbillies
I coated the inside of the hub drum area with a thin layer of wheel bearing grease so the drum wouldn't rust to it.Any feedback for that remedy?
mark
1968 m274A5
1960 m151
1981 m151A2
1964 m416
1971 m416
1968 m274A5
1960 m151
1981 m151A2
1964 m416
1971 m416
-
Mr. Recovery
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Re: Beverly Hillbillies
"I" have found that a light coat of Graphite paste works best as it won't spread when it gets hot.
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1960 M151 Run 1
1963 M151 Willys DoD 10-63 in Baltimore
1989 Alley Cat. "work in Progress"
NRA Life Member
American Legion Post 275 Fl
US Army 6 years 2nd Armored Cavalry Bindlach Germany
Colorado Army Nat. Guard 5 years
Md Air Guard 15 years active duty on C-130's
1963 M151 Willys DoD 10-63 in Baltimore
1989 Alley Cat. "work in Progress"
NRA Life Member
American Legion Post 275 Fl
US Army 6 years 2nd Armored Cavalry Bindlach Germany
Colorado Army Nat. Guard 5 years
Md Air Guard 15 years active duty on C-130's
Re: Beverly Hillbillies
(click on images to expand)
Mark, my observations have been that drum interiors may have originally came in a primer coat without paint but I'm not sure what the actual standard was from the factory. When paint got laid, the drums were on the vehicle so the interior of the drum might just as easily have remained solely in primer. I have also found drums with paint on the inside but those have always been turned at least once and I've no idea who painted them. I'd imagine that a primer coat would have been entirely sufficient for the military because drums were, and still are, expendable items. Mountains of them must have been delivered to ordinance maintenance outfits all over the world and mountains of them must have been discarded. I wonder where they all are.
Grease or oil will inevitably migrate outward (centrifugal force at work here) and you really don't want grease and oil creeping across the face of your braking surfaces which it will do, especially when heat is generated. I would say that's not the best course of action.
We want those drums to last forever so, our approach to drums is from a perspective altogether different than the military. My attitude is, paint (ANY paint) is good enough and that's coming from a guy who doesn't garage his vehicles owing chiefly to the lack of said garage, but you get my point. Being out in the weather isn't the problem. Lack of maintenance is the problem.
When it comes to coatings, you can go to the more exotic end of the spectrum...even the spray-on galvanized paint which, with proper surface prep, holds up surprisingly well. I use the spray-on galvanizing on the roof of my house which has a standing seam metal roof that alternately bakes under the Texas sun or has little fallen bits of trees gathering in the low spots where it rots (the acids created by that are VERY hard on the metal). But for brake drums, I use plain old rattle can paint because I always have a can or two (or twenty hundred thousand) on the shelf.
Ask the Navy about rust and paint. They love the stuff.
To be an entirely fair comparision, I'm in Texas where it's atypically hot and dry. Not Arizona hot and dry but far more hot and dry than folks living up in the northeast.
Through regular use and occasional PM/inspection, paint inside a brake drum is entirely sufficient to ensure things don't rust up. The real problem comes when these vehicles are put out to pasture (literally) or certain components are routinely and completely ignored by the owner.
I've dealt with removing some VERY obstinate drums. I think the worst one was on the old Alley Cat and it involved a lot of detailed cleaning work around the hub to ensure there was some access for penetrant to get in there but in the end it was a matter of using a torch and I'm not a big fan of torching things.
I like the MAP gas torches for such work, because it's easier to control and a lot more portable and Home Depot always has another tank of the stuff on the shelf. The technique I find most effective is heating the center plate on the drum in one quadrant. Not to cherry red, mind you, but laying on sufficient heat to cause expansion in just that little area.
If you look closely at a drum and how it is assembled you will find the center plate is welded to the cast iron drum. It is comparatively thin and yet completely trapped within the circumference of the drum which means, if you heat the center plate (particularly if you heat it unevenly) it will warp temporarily and if you have done your prep work at the hub, it will separate from the hub drive flange with a satisfying POP. All that's left at that point is to let it cool and then off she comes.
Storms have passed and we have another nice day ahead of us so I'm going back out to try to finish up these drums and get them in paint and then it'll be off to the rear brake innards.
Cheers,
TJ
Mark, my observations have been that drum interiors may have originally came in a primer coat without paint but I'm not sure what the actual standard was from the factory. When paint got laid, the drums were on the vehicle so the interior of the drum might just as easily have remained solely in primer. I have also found drums with paint on the inside but those have always been turned at least once and I've no idea who painted them. I'd imagine that a primer coat would have been entirely sufficient for the military because drums were, and still are, expendable items. Mountains of them must have been delivered to ordinance maintenance outfits all over the world and mountains of them must have been discarded. I wonder where they all are.
Grease or oil will inevitably migrate outward (centrifugal force at work here) and you really don't want grease and oil creeping across the face of your braking surfaces which it will do, especially when heat is generated. I would say that's not the best course of action.
We want those drums to last forever so, our approach to drums is from a perspective altogether different than the military. My attitude is, paint (ANY paint) is good enough and that's coming from a guy who doesn't garage his vehicles owing chiefly to the lack of said garage, but you get my point. Being out in the weather isn't the problem. Lack of maintenance is the problem.
When it comes to coatings, you can go to the more exotic end of the spectrum...even the spray-on galvanized paint which, with proper surface prep, holds up surprisingly well. I use the spray-on galvanizing on the roof of my house which has a standing seam metal roof that alternately bakes under the Texas sun or has little fallen bits of trees gathering in the low spots where it rots (the acids created by that are VERY hard on the metal). But for brake drums, I use plain old rattle can paint because I always have a can or two (or twenty hundred thousand) on the shelf.
Ask the Navy about rust and paint. They love the stuff. To be an entirely fair comparision, I'm in Texas where it's atypically hot and dry. Not Arizona hot and dry but far more hot and dry than folks living up in the northeast.
Through regular use and occasional PM/inspection, paint inside a brake drum is entirely sufficient to ensure things don't rust up. The real problem comes when these vehicles are put out to pasture (literally) or certain components are routinely and completely ignored by the owner.
I've dealt with removing some VERY obstinate drums. I think the worst one was on the old Alley Cat and it involved a lot of detailed cleaning work around the hub to ensure there was some access for penetrant to get in there but in the end it was a matter of using a torch and I'm not a big fan of torching things.
I like the MAP gas torches for such work, because it's easier to control and a lot more portable and Home Depot always has another tank of the stuff on the shelf. The technique I find most effective is heating the center plate on the drum in one quadrant. Not to cherry red, mind you, but laying on sufficient heat to cause expansion in just that little area.
If you look closely at a drum and how it is assembled you will find the center plate is welded to the cast iron drum. It is comparatively thin and yet completely trapped within the circumference of the drum which means, if you heat the center plate (particularly if you heat it unevenly) it will warp temporarily and if you have done your prep work at the hub, it will separate from the hub drive flange with a satisfying POP. All that's left at that point is to let it cool and then off she comes.
Storms have passed and we have another nice day ahead of us so I'm going back out to try to finish up these drums and get them in paint and then it'll be off to the rear brake innards.
Cheers,
TJ
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Last edited by m3a1 on May 29th, 2020, 12:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Beverly Hillbillies
Rolled up my sleeves and went out to finish the prep on the two front drums. Though this had been given the once-over there's still a lot of rust in there. If it were less humid and if I had the blast cabinet set up, I probably would have tackled this job with the sand blaster. But at this point we only have a vehicle that has been proof tested in sections. Later, if I can't stand the idea that these drums aren't finished to some level that's considered pristine, it would be a simple matter to go back, pluck them off the Doom Buggy and refinish them.
Yeah...like THAT's gonna happen!
I thought some of you might find it interesting to see what didn't get machined out of this particular drum. If we had gone all the way, this would be the final time this drum ever got turned so, in the interest of lengthening it's usable lifespan, that groove got left in there. A little compromise isn't necessarily a bad thing.
If you have been following along, you may recall that I mentioned that I'm using a variable speed, reversible drill with the cupped wire wheel.
Most of the old hands know why that's important but if you're new to this and you're an up-and-coming DIY-er here's the point of having a reversible drill. As you use the cupped wire wheel the wires begin to bend away from the direction it's turning, making it less efficient.
By reversing the direction, the cup will regain its efficiency in a big, big way. You can achieve a great deal with some patience, some determination and some low-end, highly disposable tools. Believe me, a cupped wire wheels will never become an heirloom tool around this place!
Now, there is still quite a bit of rust on this guy, particularly around the center hole and that rust is quite thick and hard as a rock. So, I chuck up the flap disc and gently take just the top of that rust away. This is done with a light touch because I want to leave the base metal alone. With that done, it's back to the wire wheel until the rust is gone. The moment with the flap disc makes a huge difference.
Could I leave the rust? I could, but particularly in the areas around the center hole we wouldn't want rust growing and migrating around that particular area because eventually, it would lead to a rust bond and that is exactly what this whole process is meant to avoid.
If you find yourself growing impatient, step away and move to another part of the project or an adult beverage.
Cheers,
TJ
Yeah...like THAT's gonna happen!
I thought some of you might find it interesting to see what didn't get machined out of this particular drum. If we had gone all the way, this would be the final time this drum ever got turned so, in the interest of lengthening it's usable lifespan, that groove got left in there. A little compromise isn't necessarily a bad thing.
If you have been following along, you may recall that I mentioned that I'm using a variable speed, reversible drill with the cupped wire wheel.
Most of the old hands know why that's important but if you're new to this and you're an up-and-coming DIY-er here's the point of having a reversible drill. As you use the cupped wire wheel the wires begin to bend away from the direction it's turning, making it less efficient.
By reversing the direction, the cup will regain its efficiency in a big, big way. You can achieve a great deal with some patience, some determination and some low-end, highly disposable tools. Believe me, a cupped wire wheels will never become an heirloom tool around this place!
Now, there is still quite a bit of rust on this guy, particularly around the center hole and that rust is quite thick and hard as a rock. So, I chuck up the flap disc and gently take just the top of that rust away. This is done with a light touch because I want to leave the base metal alone. With that done, it's back to the wire wheel until the rust is gone. The moment with the flap disc makes a huge difference.
Could I leave the rust? I could, but particularly in the areas around the center hole we wouldn't want rust growing and migrating around that particular area because eventually, it would lead to a rust bond and that is exactly what this whole process is meant to avoid.
If you find yourself growing impatient, step away and move to another part of the project or an adult beverage.
Cheers,
TJ
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Re: Beverly Hillbillies
Still some rust on this chamfered edge. This is an area where you definitely don't want to leave rust.
You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, get what you need. Not too shabby.
I picked up some oil on my fingers somewhere during this process necessitating a wipe-down with alcohol before masking.
And finally, in primer. The ones from last night are already painted. Wait for it.....
Looking back this seems like a whole lot of chatter for something as simple as a brake drum but hopefully someone will find something useful here. Replacement drums are still available but a penny saved is a penny earned. Once y'all see these in paint, I think you'll agree this effort was worth the overall savings.
Cheers,
TJ
You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, get what you need. Not too shabby.
I picked up some oil on my fingers somewhere during this process necessitating a wipe-down with alcohol before masking.
And finally, in primer. The ones from last night are already painted. Wait for it.....
Looking back this seems like a whole lot of chatter for something as simple as a brake drum but hopefully someone will find something useful here. Replacement drums are still available but a penny saved is a penny earned. Once y'all see these in paint, I think you'll agree this effort was worth the overall savings.
Cheers,
TJ
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Re: Beverly Hillbillies
Well, doggone it! Got chased back inside by another storm cell. At this rate....
Time for a little product review. I picked this up at Walmart on a whim since I've been needing another bluetooth speaker.
Cons - not waterproof.
Pros - Fits nicely in a gallon Ziploc bag so as to become waterproof, with no appreciable loss of volume. Recharges quickly via a USB port with three indicator lights which give some sense of how much charge it actually has. Doubles as a power source for recharging phones and such. Has a function to allow you to answer your phone at the device and speak through its system. Multiposition carry handle with a convenient hole top dead center for the addition of a hook or to be hung on a hook. Generous bumpers on all four corners. A VERY bright light with one step-down and one flash function. Cheers,
TJ
Time for a little product review. I picked this up at Walmart on a whim since I've been needing another bluetooth speaker.
Cons - not waterproof.
Pros - Fits nicely in a gallon Ziploc bag so as to become waterproof, with no appreciable loss of volume. Recharges quickly via a USB port with three indicator lights which give some sense of how much charge it actually has. Doubles as a power source for recharging phones and such. Has a function to allow you to answer your phone at the device and speak through its system. Multiposition carry handle with a convenient hole top dead center for the addition of a hook or to be hung on a hook. Generous bumpers on all four corners. A VERY bright light with one step-down and one flash function. Cheers,
TJ
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Last edited by m3a1 on May 29th, 2020, 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Beverly Hillbillies
(click to expand photo)
Managed to get the rear brakes removed. I got horribly filthy doing it, too. Nasty, nasty NASTY. For some reason,things are exceptionally awful in the rear and yup, it looks like we are going to be redoing grease seals at some point. Disassembly took about 10 mins per side and most of that was trying to finagle those bloody 1" wheel cylinders out. Happy to say I'll be putting 3/4" wheel cylinders back in so that particular headache is officially over. Here's what we start with..
Here's what we end up with... OooOOooh! Shiny!
Note that the top spring is just a little bit more closed around the anchor point than the one beneath it. No idea how that happened but I became aware of it when getting the spring off became troublesome. I had to open the bend just a little bit and all was well.
Someone cheated when they lost the retaining spring anchor and hooked the spring to the backing plate instead. I will say one thing.
It ain't right, but by golly, it held!
The guts are out and ready to become FABULOUS!
Cheers,
TJ
Managed to get the rear brakes removed. I got horribly filthy doing it, too. Nasty, nasty NASTY. For some reason,things are exceptionally awful in the rear and yup, it looks like we are going to be redoing grease seals at some point. Disassembly took about 10 mins per side and most of that was trying to finagle those bloody 1" wheel cylinders out. Happy to say I'll be putting 3/4" wheel cylinders back in so that particular headache is officially over. Here's what we start with..
Here's what we end up with... OooOOooh! Shiny!
Note that the top spring is just a little bit more closed around the anchor point than the one beneath it. No idea how that happened but I became aware of it when getting the spring off became troublesome. I had to open the bend just a little bit and all was well.
Someone cheated when they lost the retaining spring anchor and hooked the spring to the backing plate instead. I will say one thing.
It ain't right, but by golly, it held!
The guts are out and ready to become FABULOUS!
Cheers,
TJ
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Re: Beverly Hillbillies
Looks like a 1" cylinder, doesn't it? It's not. It's a Chinese Puzzle designed to make grown men weep, utter oaths and throw tools.
But by golly, I got it out.
The anchor point is misaligned and the brake line nut at the junction with the hose was pretty misshapen on both sides. Happily, we already have replacements in hand.
There wasn't even a hose retaining clip on this guy. Everything was just kind of floating around there.
This is now one solid mass of corrosion wrapped in cast iron. I must say, I think getting in here and getting dirty was worth the effort, don't you?
Cheers,
TJ
But by golly, I got it out.
The anchor point is misaligned and the brake line nut at the junction with the hose was pretty misshapen on both sides. Happily, we already have replacements in hand.
There wasn't even a hose retaining clip on this guy. Everything was just kind of floating around there.
This is now one solid mass of corrosion wrapped in cast iron. I must say, I think getting in here and getting dirty was worth the effort, don't you?
Cheers,
TJ
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Re: Beverly Hillbillies
Weather was horrible last night so I went to the movies. (a collective GASP from the crowd) I attended what turned out to be a private screening of Saving Private Ryan....literally. How sweet it was.
I got back to the brakes this morning. I examined the brake shoes and found one lining was about to become unglued from the foundation so that's it...we're going back to having all new shoes throughout. The whole enchilada. Not taking the risk and the added bonus is, since I'm not reusing the old shoes from the rear, I saved some time because there's less cleaning and refinishing to do. Time that I used up cleaning up the yard from the storm fallout...for the fourth time this week.
Another bullet neatly dodged.. Well, I had new shoes on hand so, no dramas.
Spent most of the morning cleaning and refinishing little parts. Cleaned and straightened the hose anchors. Discovered one of the hose anchors had a coarse thread bolt in a fine thread hole as a fastener so I tapped them out, 76rounded up some proper fasteners and reinstalled them with Loctite.
Tried to get the Z-line out of that hose-end but it was pretty much a lost cause so the whole thing got binned because the wisdom of trying to salvage the Z line was always questionable.
I even started in on cleaning up lug nuts and suddenly realized I was going to be needing civvy lug nuts for the wheels. Well, they'll get put in the GGBOE.
The back set of drums are finally in paint and drying now. Pretty soon I'm going to have to round up some skins for The Doom Buggy. Craigslist isn't being very helpful at the moment. It looks like 15" wheels aren't exactly popular anymore. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Cheers,
TJ
I got back to the brakes this morning. I examined the brake shoes and found one lining was about to become unglued from the foundation so that's it...we're going back to having all new shoes throughout. The whole enchilada. Not taking the risk and the added bonus is, since I'm not reusing the old shoes from the rear, I saved some time because there's less cleaning and refinishing to do. Time that I used up cleaning up the yard from the storm fallout...for the fourth time this week.
Another bullet neatly dodged.. Well, I had new shoes on hand so, no dramas.
Spent most of the morning cleaning and refinishing little parts. Cleaned and straightened the hose anchors. Discovered one of the hose anchors had a coarse thread bolt in a fine thread hole as a fastener so I tapped them out, 76rounded up some proper fasteners and reinstalled them with Loctite.
Tried to get the Z-line out of that hose-end but it was pretty much a lost cause so the whole thing got binned because the wisdom of trying to salvage the Z line was always questionable.
I even started in on cleaning up lug nuts and suddenly realized I was going to be needing civvy lug nuts for the wheels. Well, they'll get put in the GGBOE.
The back set of drums are finally in paint and drying now. Pretty soon I'm going to have to round up some skins for The Doom Buggy. Craigslist isn't being very helpful at the moment. It looks like 15" wheels aren't exactly popular anymore. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Cheers,
TJ
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Re: Beverly Hillbillies
My 1998 Honda accord has 15" wheels on it, if that gives more avenues of parts
mark
1968 m274A5
1960 m151
1981 m151A2
1964 m416
1971 m416
1968 m274A5
1960 m151
1981 m151A2
1964 m416
1971 m416
Re: Beverly Hillbillies
I'm just looking for used tires that will look the part....but on the cheap. Like THAT's gonna happen!
Re: Beverly Hillbillies
(click to open photo to full size)
Exciting news for the Beverly Hillbillies! I just scored another, better set of axles for my 42 GPW. Delivered into my hot little hands this very afternoon....
Some work to be done on the steering knuckles and the bell crank (as always)
The pumpkin looks swell. This is an axle produced in 1942!
Woo HOO!
Exciting news for the Beverly Hillbillies! I just scored another, better set of axles for my 42 GPW. Delivered into my hot little hands this very afternoon....
Some work to be done on the steering knuckles and the bell crank (as always)
The pumpkin looks swell. This is an axle produced in 1942!
Woo HOO!
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